referendum poll

[doyler]

i know it all depends on the actual wording but in general are you in favour of the present positon of all people born in ireland being automatic citizens? or would you prefer the situation where only children born to irish citizens are entitled to citizenship? or the half way stage of children born to legal residents being granted citizenship?

[Bandraoi]

I said this in the other thread but I'm going to restate it here as it's my fundamental case statement on this one:


This referendum though isn't just about denying non-EU nationals from living here it's about denying people born in this country the right to live here, even as adults.

We organise the world into nation states. Without a nation state to issue a passport/right of residence a person, through no fault of their own, can have serious difficulties.

Therefore I believe there needs to be a simple, clear rule that automatically gives everybody a right to a nationhood and that no country can go against.

The simplest way to do that, preventing legal wrangling and disputes is to grant each person automatic nationality in the country in which they are born.
That some countries don't do this is, I believe, wrong.

[Lanod]

Yes - maintain the status quo - the system works and is clear. If you are born here you are a citizen, but this does not confer citizenship, or residency rights, on your parents.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Bandraoi

The simplest way to do that, preventing legal wrangling and disputes is to grant each person automatic nationality in the country in which they are born.
That some countries don't do this is, I believe, wrong.

You seem to have confused the word simplest and simplistic

[Bandraoi]

Originally posted by Buster
You seem to have confused the word simplest and simplistic

explain please?

[krayZpaving]

<poll option 3 edited to correct typo - "bopn" to "born">

[colinsky]

Bandraoi has a good point.

Some countries give citizenship based upon the citizenship of the parent (children of citizens become citizens).

Some countries give citizenship based upon locale (all those born within the country are citizenships).

Some countries do one or the other, some countries do both (the US, as far as I'm aware.)

Because there of the different policies, there are circumstances where someone might qualify for multiple citizenships (that of the parent and of the place of birth), but there are also circumstances where neither may apply. There are potential cracks. This can become a HUGE problem for those who are left citizenshipless. (A recent example of this was seen with the change of status of Hong Kong -- some people born there weren't chinese citizens, but were't british citizens either. Both governments pretty much told them to fuck off just wrote off the problem).

For those people, that's not a good thing. After my "weak nations" proposal, the next best solution would be a consistent world-wide policy for citizenship. Neither of those are going to happen. So the third best would be for an EU-wide policy. That SHOULD happen. Since someone with a passport of an EU country can legally settle anywhere in the EU, the policy of who gets one should be set consistently at an EU-wide level. It should override the national policy -- if someone falls through the cracks of Ireland, they should be able to get an "EU-wide" passport in its place.

Ultimately, I think people should be able to live wherever they want. In terms of citizenship, however, the EU needs a consistent policy. This shouldn't be decided by a national referredum. It's not a national issue, it's an international issue.

Pus, this vote is just wrong in principle. You've got a complete lack of overlap between those doing the voting (Irish citizens) and those who the law would impact (non-citizens). That's just a breeding ground for oppression there.

[krayZpaving]

the best solution is that everyone automatically gets citizenship of the country they're born in, and anything after that can be done on a state-by-state basis.

that stops anyone slipping through the cracks.

[The Invigilator]

Not meaning to make waves here but has the EU not made a legal provision on this issue already? If they have, does that not make the proposed amendment a non runner as no matter what is decided by the Irish electorate, Ireland after all must conform to EU citizenship law.

[colinsky]

Nope, the EU currently is staying out of it.

(notice especially the last sentence)
Any person who holds the nationality of a Member State of the European Union automatically has EU citizenship. EU citizenship does not affect national citizenship in anyway. The national law of the Member States concerned regulates the conditions on acquiring and losing a nationality.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/justice_home/faq/citizenship/wai/faq_citizenship_en.htm

[Sparks]

From BreakingNews.ie (http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/03/23/story139494.html):
A date for the Government’s controversial referendum on citizenship rights could be announced later this evening. Ministers are believed to have discussed the issue at their weekly cabinet meeting this morning.
The discussion is believed to have centred on whether the referendum should he held in conjunction with the local and European elections on June 11 and whether the wording of the proposed amendment would be ready by then.